Metapost: In Which There Are Many Polls

Ramblites, I have two problems that are entwining into a nice opportunity.

Problem One is that I'm running out of random things to rant about on Thursdays. I know, I know: it hardly seems possible. But I've spent a whole year's worth of Thursdays ranting about feminism and ableism and racism and my list of things I need to educate the world on is getting steadily smaller.

Problem Two is that I'm increasingly concerned that if you're not showing up for Narnia or Twilight, you won't show up at all. You non-Narnians, non-Twilighters know what I mean: some weeks I just don't enthrall you. I know that.

The Opportunity is that I've long wanted to do more book deconstructions but I simply do not have the time. I mean, a Wednesday deconstruction series or a Monday deconstruction series on top of Narnia Tuesdays and Twilight Saturdays is not feasible. But you know what is feasible? Pop-up deconstruction posts on Thursday to supplement Random Thursday.

Yay! The up-side here is: Ana has fresh content to post, we have non-Twilight, non-Narnia, non-Ism 101 posts to chat about, and every Thursday is like a surprise party. The down-side is that we may end up going 4-8 weeks between posts on a specific book. I'll maintain the series threads in the Deconstruction page and be proactively vigorous with re-capping and I think that will work.

But I wanted to poll you guys on some ideas and gauge interest on some upcoming projects. Please vote as close to your preference as the poll options allow -- the top option is always SUPER INTERESTED and the bottom option is always TOTALLY NOT and you don't need to "weight" the options across all the polls -- you can vote interested in everything if you want, or in nothing, or in a mix. Thanks!

Deconstruction of Disney movies?
  free polls 

Deconstruction of The Hunger Games? free polls 

Read-a-Long of Harry Potter? free polls 

Read-a-Long of Song of Ice and Fire? free polls 

Deconstruction of A Wrinkle in Time? free polls 

Deconstruction of Frank Peretti (title to be determined later)? free polls 

Frolic in the comments!


Susan B. said...

I suppose I'm most in favor of either Disney movies or the Wrinkle in Time series, as examples of works by reasonably skilled creators which nevertheless have some interesting problems to discuss (much like the Narnia series). Not so interested in a deconstruction of The Hunger Games, at least until I actually read the series for myself--that's one series I definitely don't want spoiled!

Speaking of Narnia Tuesdays, I'm sure somewhere you've answered the question of when they're coming back, but…er…when are they coming back? My week is starting to look bleaker and bleaker, what with the lack of Narnia, the end of Claymore, and the bad luck that both of these ended around the same time as Slactivist finished Tribulation Force. (Speaking of which, anyone know when the next Left Behind book is starting up?)

Alioth said...

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on A Wrinkle in Time. Yes please yes please.

Ken said...

I would prefer either ASoIaF or Wrinkle in Time, but Harry Potter is also good (why is Hermione unable to defend herself?) . I also second the question about Narnia posts, since Narnia is to me the leader on which "Left Behind" et al orient. So it IS very interesting to read about problems with it. Disney or Hunger games, OTOH, don't sound like something I could identify with (yes, Disney is not emancipationg, duh...). But maybem if You DO write about Disney, have You thought about Bridge To Terabitia?

Ana Mardoll said...

(Narnia will start again next week. I am doing the BBC film adaptation of LWW, then the American one, and then we start reading Prince Caspian. On which I already have THOUGHTS.)

Laiima said...

You said Disney, but I was thinking Pixar. Still, either would work.

I have THG #1 from the library, but have not begun reading it. I do not mind spoilers, since I've been reading reviews of the movie, as well as people talking about the books for months.

Harry Potter - yes, please.

I've not read Song of Ice and Fire, and don't intend to, so meh.

Loved Wrinkle in Time, and was born in the mid-60s, so I'm interested in your much-younger take on things.

I've never heard of Frank Peretti.

TL; DR - You're my new go-to place for interesting reading. I look forward to whatever you want to write about, even if it's not something that I was already captivated by.

Maartje said...

Even though I said Meh to some of your options, I'd still show up to read everything you write. High point of my day! And not because my days are so sucky, but because your posts frankly effervesce with awesome.

Susan B. said...

Ooh, Pixar would be great! I'm the only one I know who was disappointed in WALL-E (call me heartless, go ahead!) so it would be very fun to get into an in-depth discussion about it!

Yamikuronue said...

Frank Peretti is insidious. At least Meyer had the decency to be a bad writer as well as having a troublesome plot.

Also, I'm getting a little burned out on Harry Potter, but Disney sounds awesome

JonathanPelikan said...

So say we all.

depizan said...

I'd be interested in any of the above, though least in Frank Peretti, I think, simply because I'm the least familiar with his stuff. (And it's Christian Fiction where as the others are all general audience stuff.)

Though I do have to admit that I don't understand people's love for A Wrinkle In Time. I read it as a kid and thought it was boring and confusing, and read it again as an adult and found it to still be boring and confusing. (Though not having a single character I could relate to might have something to do with that. My brain has been known to go off and have tea if it isn't engaged.)

chris the cynic said...

I probably would steer clear of a Hunger Games thing because, based on what Will has said about it, I don't think I'd be able to emotionally cope with it. On the other hand I have no great objection to a deconstruction that I'm not following (I never really got into Claymore and I didn't feel like that was a problem.) Which is why I didn't vote on it, I'm not in favor since I wouldn't read, but I'm not opposed either since it wouldn't bother me.

Also it sounded like you'd really enjoy doing a Hunger Games thing, which seems like a more important factor than anyone's vote.

I don't even know how I feel about Harry Potter. Song of Ice and Fire and Frank Peretti I know nothing of. (Then again the same thing was once true of Twilight and I'm definitely following that.) Disney and A Wrinkle in Time sound interesting.

Ana Mardoll said...

Couple of thoughts:

1. Thank you all for the super kind things you are saying. SO MUCH LOVE!

2. I'm thoroughly amused at some of the poll results, particularly the heavy "meh" on Peretti. I'm wondering if I was unique for having read ALL HIS BOOKS as a child. *shudder*

3. I should have been clearer, but yeah "Disney" is a generic term around the house for G/PG animated kids movies that don't come from Japan. (Those get graduated to the anime section.) Wall-E would be included in a "Disney" burn-down. Bridge to Teribithia I've only seen once (and it wasn't at all what I was expecting).

Alioth said...

depizan: Heh. I didn't find A Wrinkle in Time quite as boring as you did, but there was a definite air of "wait, what just happened? And these are Classic Good Children's Literature?".

I've actually learned a lot about literary analysis from reading the deconstructions of Twilight (funny how none of my English teachers managed to make me figure it out...) and I'd love to read Ana's take on a book with a lot of actual merit, where we're not all thinking "or Stephenie Meyer could just be a bad writer" every couple of sentences.

Fluffy_goddess said...

The Disney (and similar) deconstruction(s) would definitely draw me in, especially if these are to be once-every-few-weeks posts. And I'd be very interested in The Hunger Games, though it'll be a while before I get to read them because there are more than a dozen people ahead of me on the wait list to get them from the library.

Less interested in A Wrinkle in Time because it kind of falls into the category of Books I Read So I'd Be Reading Something as a kid -- she did write stuff that was interesting to me, but that's not it. And I had to google Frank Peretti, so though I'm sure it would be a brilliant deconstruction and I'd read it anyway, there's no chance I'll understand what's going on.

Lunch Meat said...

I'd follow all of those, although I'd be less into Hunger Games and Song of Ice and Fire because I haven't read them. Can I make another suggestion? I'd like to see a decon of Little House on the Prairie. I know it has problems, like RaceFail, but I can't read it objectively and I want to know issues to look out for if I choose to read it to my hypothetical children.

ZMiles said...

I would definitely be intrigued in a Hunger Games (or, for that matter, Battle Royale) deconstruction. I really liked the books (especially the first one) and I'm interested to see them analyzed.

Adele said...

Working through it:
Disney Movies would interest me, but if it's a choice between you doing that or, say, Harry Potter, I would go for Harry Potter.
The Hunger Games I want to read a deconstruction of - what I've found most valuable about your deconstruction of Twilight is that it put reasons behind my reactions, and I think one of THG would do the same.
Harry Potter I would love you to do.
A Song of Ice and Fire I haven't read, so I wouldn't read your deconstruction.
A Wrinkle in Time I would like you to do, similar reasons to THG.
I have not read anything by Frank Peretti, so wouldn't read deconstruction.

Anonymus said...

Disney: disney movies rocked when i was a little kid and the ones i saw as a little kid still rock. but rest suck. you'll probably have a more nuanced view (and i'm not sure whether you're older than me, younger than me, or both, so the ones you saw as a little kid may be different from the ones i saw as a little kid.). But I don't mind finding out that a movie I really liked when I was four is More Complicated Than That.

hunger games: haven't read it, not likely to, but if you want to do a deconstruction then i'll read it and stuff.

harry potter: sure. i'm not crazy about harry potter but i don't dislike it either, and i have read the material at least. though it's really confusing reading about it in English. the language i read the books in changed most of character names, the name of the school, and the names of the subjects taught.

a song of ice and fire: hated that book. it's so boring! why can't they just go back to winterfell and play with puppies and ignore this whole thrones nonesense? the only thing more boring than reading about politics is reading about make believe politics. that + feminism fail.

wrinkle in time: loved the book and its sequels and i loved other books by L'Engle. I read Wrinkle in Time so many times the cover fell off when I was seven.

Frank Peretti: who? *googles* oh, him. someone else is doing a decon of one of his books already, though. not as interested in this one as in the other options. but i'll read whichever you choose.

Timothy (TRiG) said...

I have a vague recollection that another Slacktivite is doing Frank Peretti. Never read him. Never heard of him in any other context.

I saw only bits of the film of Bridge to Terabithia, but I know the book very well. And I love it. I'd like to see your take on that.


Inquisitive Raven said...

Re: Peretti: Yeah, Yami's been deconstructing This Present Darkness, and Jarred started a deconstruction of The Visitation, but I haven't been following Yami's blog that closely, and Jarred hasn't blogged on any subject since mid-January.

redcrow said...

Peretti is "This Present Darkness"? Yamicuronue deconstructs him currently.

Disney - probably will read.
Hunger Games - no, sorry. Will skip. Real-life dystopias are more than enough for me.
Potter - also won't read. Would like to, but won't. The potential for flamewars is too big.
L'Engle - I have no big emotional attachment to the book, negative or positive, so might read.
ASOIAF - not my cup of tea, will skip.

Ana Mardoll said...

Yeah, I knew Yami was doing THIS PRESENT DARKNESS. I'm still deciding between THE OATH and the Cooper Kids series that teach racism. For Jesus!

jill heather said...

Disney would be fun, or Hunger Games, or Harry Potter (especially as HP is new to you). If you're worried about flamewars, though, GoT is going to get you worse than HP will, I think. Also, it makes HP look well-edited.

Ken said...

Just for Your information:

you can buy HP in E-Book form there

Loquat said...

I'd never heard of Frank Peretti before, and it's been so long since I read the Wrinkle in Time series that I remember virtually none of it. I've just recently watched the Hunger Games movie and the first 2 episodes of the second season of Game of Thrones, so if you did either of those a comparison between book and movie/show would be cool.

Jeldaly said...

Please do HG! I love that series more than life itself. I guess the other thing I would really love tonsee you do is Disney movies, because there's a lot to dissect there. Did you mean the newer ones (High School Musical etc.) or the old ones (Aladdin, Sleeping Beauty, etc.)?

Sol said...

I'm curious about how you feel, overall, about those books/movies. I think you like Hunger Games; judging from Pulchritude, your attitude towards Disney movies might be a bit negative; and so on. But could you sum up your reaction towards all the choices, the way you did before?

(Also, I'd follow anything. Probably still wouldn't comment more than once in a blue moon, but I'm a champion lurker.)

Ana Mardoll said...

Lurker High Fivez!

The Disney/Animated stuff is going to vary a lot, but I generally fall down in favor of liking them, to be honest. I think they'll get kind of an "Ana's Nostalgia Score" AND a "Offensive Fail Score" where I say, ok, I liked this as a kid, BUT...

I love the Hunger Games. I expect to hate the GRRM Song of Ice and Fire books. I was seriously squicked out by the L'Engle books as a kid; there's some definitely problematic elements that bother me. I consider Peretti's books to be insidiously evil (though apparently he's a nice enough person in person). I have no idea what to expect from Harry Potter -- I liked the movies, but I'm wondering what I'll think about the books.

jill heather said...

HP books are (a) lots and lots of fun and (b) hugely, insanely problematic wrt racism and sexism and slavery. (There are arguments about antisemitism and the goblins, too, but I think those are less overt and less clearly there.) To me they are at much the level of Disney movies -- I love them, but they aren't even close to perfect.

chris the cynic said...

judging from Pulchritude, your attitude towards Disney movies might be a bit negative

Ana has fascinating and positive things to say about the Little Mermaid, if I recall correctly.


I have no idea what to expect from Harry Potter -- I liked the movies, but I'm wondering what I'll think about the books.

I can share my impressions, though they end before the series does.

I got into Harry Potter at a summer camp when the fourth book came out. Everyone knew about it but me, piles of the books began arriving.

I managed to borrow a copy of the first book, read it, wasn't too impressed, I think I might have had to buy a copy of the second, read it, thought it was worse. Read the third book, thought it was quite good, read the fourth, thought it was excellent. Couldn't wait for the fifth.

When the fifth came out I read it with a combination of things going on. I started expecting greatness*, didn't find anything that felt that way to me. Part of it was the hope that if I kept reading it would get good, part was the inability to look away that accompanies most train wrecks, and part of it was the knowledge that I was going to finish the book no matter what, so if I set it down I'd have to pick it back up again. That all added up to me finishing it in one night. I've never so much as touched a Harry Potter book since. I figured that by the time the sixth book came out the aversion would have faded, but the fifth book seems to have burned out any desire I ever had to interact with Harry Potter.

I'm not exactly indifferent, but neither do I have any clearly identifiable strong feelings. The desire to experience more simply ended.


* I thought that the third and fourth books really represented the author hitting her stride and she now was on a roll. Though I did have one of the versions of the fourth book with the error in it, and I noticed it and was thrown by it. For the third and fourth the plots seemed somewhat better, the characters more human, and over all it just seemed more its own thing than the same-old, same-old feeling that characterized the first two.

jill heather said...

Spoilers for the HP books ahead!

I think I got into HP for book 3 (the best book in the series). What I really loved about it was the discussion and community it generated -- something that THG, which are probably better books, did not have. (As an adult discussing/debating the books with other adults.) There was "who will she kill?" for book 4; the regular Snape: good/evil debates; who is RAB and Aberforth; the debate about whether Harry (or Harry's scar) was a Horcrux or not; the question about what ending the book would choose (just this once everybody lives, sacrifice, or the Shire was saved but not for me) -- I mean, you couldn't guess things like the hallows, but the shape of the series was pretty good for these kinds of discussions/predictions, and I really miss them.

Laocorn said...

The thought of the Narnia books remains most interesting to me, personally. Still, as others have said: whatever works for you ^_^

(I would like to post a little more often in the comments sections, but I often come to these posts late. Hopefully I can make up for that a bit by saying Thank you for putting so much into them.)

Sol said...

ASoIaF probably isn't great for deconstruction, if only due to the sheer size of the books. Honestly, holding one of those for half an hour is fairly hard on the wrists - I'm a bit scared that if you started deconstructing the first one, it might take years to reach the end. On the other hand, I really want to know what you think of ASoIaF; I can't categorize my reaction beyond just "traumatized".

+1 for Hunger Games. Not because I like them, since I'm a die-hard Battle Royale fanatic, but because I don't understand why they're so popular. And what they say about our culture, really.

Will Wildman said...

My top vote goes to the movies partly because I assume they would be tackled as whole units, which seems important because of reasons, which I will now elucidate:

One thing about readalongs is that, in my view, there are some stories that aren't really best analysed or discussed in pieces/sequential order. Fred Clark does just fine with the Left Behind series because those are really one undifferentiated mass of Plotness; there's no character development or true plot arcs to consider. Twilight does okay because it's extremely in-the-moment and thus analysing What This Right Here And Now Means is more relevant (although we still keep referencing future bits). Hunger Games in comparison has (I thought) a huge amount of character progression and portraiture, such that different scenes can change a lot in their meaning and significance over time, and it could be very hard to capture that in a sequential read without constantly recapping and discussing what things meant then and mean now. Mark noted this in Mark Reads THG, and said that chopping it up chapter by chapter was a really artificial and counterproductive approach.

The same goes for Song of Ice and Fire, though in that case it's less because of great swathes of character progression and more because there are a billion things happening all at the same time and the whole mess is bordering on incoherent. Plus, as noted, the books are sometimes used to compress neutron stars to a more compact state, which means it would take forever to get anywhere and many elements would oft be missed.

If I were going to approach a series like that, I think I would tend less to do a sequential read and more to do an episodic decon, either taking specific incidents and discussing them in terms of where they came from, what they are, and what they led to, or by picking a particular thread running through an entire arc and examining each of its aspects. But that is just me think-typing*.

*Neither 'typing out loud' nor 'thinking out loud' make sense in the context. I'm a bit lost as to how to handle this. Anyone know if there's a non-sound-based equivalent, maybe from deaf discourse, that means 'expressing thoughts as they come to me without necessarily expecting everyone to take note of or remember each bit'?


+1 for Hunger Games. Not because I like them, since I'm a die-hard Battle Royale fanatic

I watched the first Battle Royale movie last weekend, and what primarily struck me was that it was, referncing Adams, almost but not entirely completely unlike Hunger Games. Superficially, the premise is incredibly similar, and yet the themes, the character presentation and discussion, the arc of the story, the perspective(s), there's almost nothing in common. Maybe I would see more similarities if I read the Battle Royale novel instead, but at the moment I'm confused that people keep on comparing them; it seems very apples-and-rhinoceroses.

Caravelle said...

I voted positively to an extent or another for all of those, except for Frank Peretti who I can't remember offhand.

But I was disappointed by the lack of excitement in the Wrinkle in Time options. Switch my "maximum yes" option for that one with that of just about any of the other ones. (not that I don't like the other books or films, but when you come down to it I've seen lots of analysis of Disney films, the Hunger Games, ASOIAF and Harry Potter. I don't recall reading internet analyses of Madeleine l'Engle's books (which makes sense to be fair, I bet if they'd come out in the Internet era it would be different), so I would be quite excited in seeing some.)

IOW : A Wrinkle in Time ? Sweet fried okra, YES ! Be still my heart ! OMG, I wonder what Mark Reads would make of it ? But in the meantime, YES ! -squee- ! How could this not be crispy fried awesome ?

Unless of course the staid options reflected your own lack of enthusiasm for it, in which case of course you should go with something that excites you.

Caravelle said...

A Wrinkle in Time was the opposite for me - it was the Book The Teacher Told Me Was Too Hard For Me. Turned out, not so much :)
It was also probably one of the books that turned me onto English-language, book-form SF/F.

Dav said...

It's kids, fighting to the death, and there's a dystopic government running it all. To make things more "fun", there are heavy elements of luck, and the people in control have all kinds of tricks up their sleeves to keep the kids doing what they're supposed to. And the kids - some of them - fight back. I agree that they're different in terms of tone and focus, and they're definitely products of their time and cultures, but I think it's an interesting comparison, especially in the way relationships shape outcomes.

I can recommend the graphic novel, although the movie is pretty faithful - I think the movie just doesn't have enough *time* to fully flesh out all the threads, and there's some stuff lost. One of the things I have mixed feelings about for the Hunger Games is that, because of the first person perspective, we don't see a lot of deaths. I want to know what happened to the people that died off-stage, especially Thresh, and we never do. I think the wanting to know may actually be part of the *point* of the book - how bloodthirsty can we be for entertainment, anyway? - but I still sort of want to know.

I'm a little surprised that that Stephen King novella doesn't come up more - what is it, the Long Walk? Where all the kids have to keep walking until only one of them lives?

Ana Mardoll said...

Consider the lack of enthusiasm to be merely a by-product of running out of ways to express it across 6 polls. :D

Will Wildman said...

It's kids, fighting to the death, and there's a dystopic government running it all. To make things more "fun", there are heavy elements of luck, and the people in control have all kinds of tricks up their sleeves to keep the kids doing what they're supposed to. And the kids - some of them - fight back. I agree that they're different in terms of tone and focus, and they're definitely products of their time and cultures, but I think it's an interesting comparison, especially in the way relationships shape outcomes.

I see the parallels, but Battle Royale seemed to be a very broad story - Shuuya is only the main character by a narrow margin - and the movie in particular was really a series of vignettes about the many, many ways that people might react to this situation, ways of defying or coping with monstrous authoritarianism. THG in comparison is a very close, internal story that spends half its time inside a single person's head, and has much more to do with voyeurism and glamour than BR. Half the point of BR is the shock and the sudden pressure to do awful things with no time to cope; half the point of THG is the total sense of inevitability and the degree to which people simply treat the arena as an obstacle to survive regardless of what they're required to do - Peeta is weird for bringing morality and politics into the game.

I dunno; it just seems to me to be like comparing Song of Ice and Fire with Eragon. Antagonistic fantasy nations, mystic powers closely tied to near-extinct dragons, mysterious bonds of blood and lineage, okay, but really: not that much alike.

chris the cynic said...

But that is just me think-typing*.

*Neither 'typing out loud' nor 'thinking out loud' make sense in the context. I'm a bit lost as to how to handle this. Anyone know if there's a non-sound-based equivalent, maybe from deaf discourse, that means 'expressing thoughts as they come to me without necessarily expecting everyone to take note of or remember each bit'?

I'd go with "thinking in text".


If you say so, but I still maintain "apples and railroad tracks" is a better expression.

ZMiles said...

Stephen King did two works along those lines: The Long Walk, where 100 boys have to walk until they can't walk anymore and are shot (the winner is the last one walking, he gets whatever he wants for the rest of his life as the prize). There was also The Running Man, where a guy signs up for a reality TV show which is basically, "We're putting a huge bounty on you, making it legal to kill you, and sending trained assassins. We're also broadcasting this to the public, who will get money if they call up our hunters and tell them where you are. Your family gets money for every hour you're still alive. If you somehow survive a month, we give you a gazillion dollars, but that's not gonna happen."


The BR graphic novel goes into much more detail about the side characters than the novel, which in turn goes into more detail than the movie. I'll note a few things:

1. The American translated manga has a few changes from the original Japanese. In particular, the whole reality-TV show aspect was added by the translator. So be wary of that.
2. I've seen the manga described as the most violent and goriest manga ever translated into English by a legitimate publisher. The series was even admitted by the publisher to have 'extreme' content. (While I'm not all that familiar with ASOIAF, I'm given to understand that the BR manga features things more extreme than Martin's series). So, trigger warnings for all manner of violence and sexual assault apply to it (these apply to the book and movie too, but in lesser amounts).

As for my thoughts on comparing BR and THG:

I think they are very different sorts of books. THG is all about governmental control of the populace; the whole Games are a government-run spectacle from the get-go, the government is intrusive at each aspect (big productions for selecting Tributes, the TV interviews and fashion showcases, etc.). In BR, by contrast, the government is barely present. The students are abducted in secret. We only see the government through the Proctor, and the students only see him at one point -- in the beginning when he's laying out the rules. After that he just gives the 'who died today' announcements. In the original novel and Japanese manga, the populace never sees him (or the games at all); they just hear about the winner a few days later.

The traps also reflect this difference. The traps in THG are often triggered by the government and directly kill the players (like Titus the cannibal). The muttations and the fireballs are also examples of this. In BR, by contrast, there aren't many government traps. The zones periodically become Danger Zones (anyone who walks into them explodes), but that's told to the players in advance; it's not done suddenly to trick or outmaneuver them (and can then be turned into another weapon by enterprising players; the only student who dies from these is lured into one by a villain). The government mostly stays out of it and lets the kids kill each other off; whereas in THG, the government is actively targeting them.

This of course ties into the overall themes of the competitions themselves. In THG, the Games are to intimidate the districts by showing off the government's power. The goal is to fear the government. In BR, the games are to show the populace that their neighbors cannot be trusted -- each BR with a winner means that some kid killed all his friends. Therefore, the public will never trust each other enough to unite against the government. The goal is to make the people fear each other. (The movie has another rational which is much more like THG's, but it doesn't work as well. The reality-TV aspect in the American translation is also not explained all that well).

ZMiles said...


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